First of all there is to say, that I am gay and a christian and since I can remember I went to church on every Sunday with my family. But when I grew older and became aware of being gay and accepting and loving myself the way I am it turned out that I was not welcome anymore in the church I went to every Sunday for about, well almost 17 years.

And even when I read a newspaper or read some news stuff online I always kind of am facing the fact that homosexual people do not seem to have the same right to believe in God as everyone else does. I simply cannot understand why, but do I not have the same body and the same blood and actually the same kind of dreams and wishes as everyone else?

Not to mention the pope's opinion on my kind.

So I wondered if anyone is of the opinion that homosexuality and religion do not agree?

I think the question "Does homosexuality and religion agree?" is more than a bit vague and unquestionably leading.

NDamon, I think the question you really need to ask yourself is, "What is a Christian?" You proclaim yourself to be one, and qualify your proclamation with 17 years of faithful church attendance, but you don't address the core precepts of Christianity, nor what your 'church' taught you. Did you merely attend church? Or did you pay attention as well?

First let's define the terms being utilized. The word 'church' originally refers to "the body (or assembly) of all Christians." The word ‘Christian’ is an overt inference to an attempt to follow the teachings of Christ. Among the most disheartening issues is the fact that the term 'church' and even 'Christian' have become watered down in modern society to mean something akin to the Gospel of Prosperity; “if it fulfills my personal and material desires, then it pleases God and even if he didn’t actually say so, it’s painfully obvious that’s what Jesus’ teachings must have intended to convey to us.”

Next let's deal with issue of authority. From whence does it come? Generally (and please appreciate that this is a gross but fairly accurate generalization), Catholics would tell you that final authority lays within the interpretations, doctrines, and declarations espoused of the leadership of the Church; Protestants would tell you that final authority stands with God's revealed Word, the Bible.

Among "Christians," one of these two must take the form of definitive authority; if not, the focus moves away from personage of Christ and you are left with another, less-Christian form of worship. One can complain about how "some people" try to steal or take over Christianity, but the Bible is unique in it’s claim to be the exclusive source of ‘Christ’s teachings,’ thus it’s acceptance as such is virtually universal. In other words, the Bible cannot be used to detract from or otherwise replace Christ’s teachings; it is Christ’s teachings.

Next, how do each of these authorities deal with the subject of homosexuality? And since you've already so eloquently addressed 'the pope's opinion on [your] kind" (and because I'm not a Catholic by faith), I'll leave this topic for others to pontificate upon.

To the best of my knowledge, and it is limited at best, the Bible refers to homosexuality a minimum of 6 times; in each of these instances, it portrays the practice in a negative light:

(1) "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." - Genesis 19:4-5

(2) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." - Leviticus 18:22

(3) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable." - Leviticus 20:13

(4) "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." - Romans 1:26-7

(5) "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor the idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God" - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

(6) "knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." - 1 Timothy 1:9-10

I may be incorrect in this assertion, but I do not believe that you will find a positive reference to homosexuality in the Bible. In fact, I am quite sure of it.

So, there are some basic truths to be gained from this:
1. The Bible is based on the teachings of Christ
2. Those who follow the teachings of Christ are known as Christians
3. Christians look exclusively to the Bible for guidance on Christ’s teachings
4. The Bible only refers to homosexuality in negative terms

Thus, I submit to you:

Conclusion 1: Christ did not view homosexuality in either favorable terms, nor as an acceptable practice

Conclusion 2: You are choosing to engage in practices that are clearly regarded by Christians (remember: those who practice Christ’s teachings), regardless of their source of authority, as unfavorable.

This is a case of you moving away from acceptable Christian practices, not a form of social or religious discrimination; remember, these beliefs existed millennia before you decided to move away from them.

On a side note, I do not claim to know the mind of God. What I do know are the guidelines he laid out for us all. It is unfortunate that these guidelines do not include having “the same body and the same blood and actually the same kind of dreams and wishes as everyone else.” Pity that our society has become so enamored with hedonism and narcissism that even Almighty God is subject to it...

quote:

3. Christians look exclusively to the Bible for guidance on Christ’s teachings

Not exactly true. We Catholics also look to the Magisterium. We do this because sola scriptura is unbiblical.

Overall, you're right to point out that Christianity and homosexual behavior are mutually exclusive.

quote:

Originally posted by NDamon:
First of all there is to say, that I am gay and a christian and since I can remember I went to church on every Sunday with my family. But when I grew older and became aware of being gay and accepting and loving myself the way I am it turned out that I was not welcome anymore in the church I went to every Sunday for about, well almost 17 years.

And even when I read a newspaper or read some news stuff online I always kind of am facing the fact that homosexual people do not seem to have the same right to believe in God as everyone else does. I simply cannot understand why, but do I not have the same body and the same blood and actually the same kind of dreams and wishes as everyone else?

Not to mention the pope's opinion on my kind.

So I wondered if anyone is of the opinion that homosexuality and religion do not agree?

The truth is that you are no longer Catholic because of your:

1) anti-God behavior
2) disobedience to God's commandment - see the Old Testament where God forbids this -

quote:

Leviticus 18: 22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with
womankind, because it is an abomination.

http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?...k=3&ch=18&l=22&f=s#x

3) Because you are thus disobedient to God's only true Church [Catholic - not the Novus Ordo heretics though]

Therefore your only hope is to pray to God to get rid of this abomination and through God's grace only it can be done [if you are a Catholic in good standing - Catholic tradition, otherwise it will not work] - you will otherwise fail over and over if you employ your own human strength to get rid of this evil habit.

Till you do, there can be no room for you in the Church because of your clear disobedience to God and what He commands [Lev. 18:22].

NO honest priest will give you Holy Communion because of this abominable behavior you practice. It is like saying that what God commands means little to you - you cannot be part of the true flock of Christ because of this. St. Paul also taught that we should separate ourselves from such who do not love God and do not obey...it is evident that God is not your first concern, how to serve God and to please Him only...and not to please your own evil inclinations....

It is like wilfuly turning yourself into a beast, or wilfully telling God that you know better than He does....

There is no other way but to humble yourself in front of God, to to confession and ask sincerely for forgiveness and do not do this again !

If you do this directly, you will escape [by the grace of God] from this satanic scourge which you are victim of and will learn how sweet the Lord is by being again His son and not His enemy through your sin...

I pray for your sincere ammendment and hope that all will turn around for you. With God's grace anything and everything is possible, but without disposing your soul and body towards chastity, purity and sanctity, you cannot receive this Divine help.

If I may suggest, have a very strict schedule, get up early, say your prayers, say every hour Our Father and Hail Mary etc., examen your conscience at least twice a day, at noon say the Angelus [or now Regina Ceali] and read the Immitation of Christ and the Holy Bible [Douay-Rheims - not the new perverted versions].

If you have any such evil thoughts, I would even suggest using violence [a belt etc.] and subdue the body into subjection - the spirit has to win over the lust of the body, provided your change is sincere, God will help you.

But if you lie to God and to yourself [and if you continue with this abominable behavior], you will die in your sin and end up in Hell.

This is the truth.

Start today - it won't be easy, but it will happen if you do it. Pray much and do penance.


Jan

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jan Malina,

quote:

Originally posted by Jackson K. Eskew:

quote:

3. Christians look exclusively to the Bible for guidance on Christ’s teachings

Not exactly true. We Catholics also look to the Magisterium. We do this because sola scriptura is unbiblical.

Thanks for the clarification Jackson. So, (1) the Magisterium is the body through which Biblical texts are interpreted within the Catholic Church? (2) And 'sola scriptura' would be a reference to an individual interpreting the Bible on their own, or at least outside of the parameters designated by the Magisterium?