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Originally posted by Penn:
At the time of Christ the Romans were not at war with the Jews, brian464.
An occupying Roman force that tortures and crucifies dissidents and unfairly taxes them is at war, isn't that right ? WHY DO WE SAY THAT WE ARE AT WAR WITH TERRORISTS, ISN'T IT BECAUSE TERRORISTS ARE STILL KILLING PEOPLE IN IRAQ ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
The centurian who asked Jesus to heal his servant was a friend of the Jews and had built them a synagogue.
Whom did Jesus refer to when he said love your enemies ? Was he referring to people like the Romans ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
You are mistaken if you call him an enemy.
Why do you think the US is prosecuting the driver of Osama Bin Laden, because he is regarded as the enemy because he was associated with Osama even though he did not commit any violence... I think Jesus would refer to the Roman Centurion as the enemy, because he was part of the foreign power occupying Jerusalem that tortured and crucified dissident Jews. DIDNT JESUS REFER TO THE ROMANS WHEN HE SAID, "WHEN THE ENEMY COMES UPON JERUSALEM " IN PROPHESYING ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM IN AD70.
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Originally posted by Penn:
There was no declared war between Jesus and those legions.
Even though the Romans were torturing and crucifying the dissident Jews ? Why did Jesus not declare war against such an evil empire ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
It is obvious that religion is more powerful than mere brute force.
If that is the case why does the US use brute force ? Are you saying faith in the US is weak so we have to use brute force ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
The power of the state is the sword, and with a sword you can threaten only death.
Yes, the Romans used a lot of the "sword" to kill off any and all opposition to their rule. What did Jesus do about it ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Religion allows people to think lightly of death and believe that this life is the prelude to either the bliss of heaven or the agony of hell.
So are you saying that religious people should prepare themselves for the after life instead of worrying about the politics of today ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Religious devotion can be far deeper than any loyalty possible to a state.
Is that why Jesus was not bothered about the Romans because He was trying to convey a message to the Jews not to rebel against Rome but rather sacrifice their lives spiritually to God and not bother about politics ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
The US government recognizes this and indoctrinates its soldiers with phrases like the 6th Article of the Code of Conduct: "I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and the United States of America." Notice the order there.
FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM ? WHY DIDNT JESUS FIGHT FOR FREEDOM ?
When you state"made my country free ", are you implying that people were not free because there was an occupying power, namely the British ? and if spirituality is what is important , why were people involved in politics in kicking out the British ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Even the military recognizes that ultimately trust is placed first and foremost in God and secondarily in the state.
Did Jesus trust in the state ? was it His secondary importance or no importance at all ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Political kingdoms are transient, ephemeral things.
If political kingdoms are transient, why are people so much involved in rebelling against occupying powers ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
No kingdom or nation on earth has survived longer than the Roman Empire.
Even after conquering Israel and massacring hundreds of thousands of Jews, the Roman Empire lasted for hundreds of years......what does this tell us about God's support of Israel ? or does it convey the message that the Spiritual Kingdom is more important than an earthly kingdom like Israel ? because if Israel, the earthly kingdom was important to God, He would not have let the Romans conquer Israel and even if He allowed that, the Roman empire would not have survived for long after that, but the evidence points to the Roman Empire lasting hundreds of years after Israelis were conquered and massacred by the hundreds of thousands.
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Originally posted by Penn:
Mighty America has lasted little more than two short centuries. What is that next to the everlasting kingdom of God and His Church?
Are you saying that God's kingdom is more important than an earthly kingdom and if so, why are people so involved politically in the earthly kingdom ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Christianity is merely the continuation of what was Judaism.
Judaism was all about politics whereas even though christians were persecuted, tortured and killed by the Romans for hundreds of years , they still did not get involved in politics till the early 4th century.
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Originally posted by Penn:
Modern Jews have rejected their own Messiah, so properly understood Abraham, Moses, and David are the forefathers of Christianity, not what we call Judaism today.
Moses and David were heavily involved in politics in warring against all those against them, so i don't see them being forefathers of Christians who never got involved in politics for hundreds of years until the early 4th century when the church became political and in turn used sheer force to do their bidding
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Originally posted by Penn:
How long has that kingdom lasted? Islam and all the other flase religions are young in comparison. That kingdom has spread across the world, gaining strength, and outlasting every political kingdom.
If a spiritual kingdom transcends borders and if political kingdoms DO NOT LAST are not as important, why be involved in politics and war against other nations in which christians are present ?DIDNT GOD SAY TO THE PROPHET THAT HE WOULD SPARE SODDOM EVEN IF THERE WAS ONE BELIEVER IN IT ? SO WHY SHOULD THE US WAR AGAINST ANY NATION WHICH HAS EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN IN IT ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Every nation on earth now contains members of that eternal kingdom which cannot be destroyed and will never fail.
So your saying that the eternal kingdom is more important than the political kingdoms and if so, why be involved in politics ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Conversely, every nation in existence now will die out and fall, in time, unless Christ returns first.
Same thing, if political kingdoms will eventually die out, why not be only involved in the spiritual kingdom ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Why would Jesus rebel against Rome?
Because since Jesus knew the Romans, especially Pontius Pilate, were torturing and crucifying dissident Jews and harassing Jews to be obedient, would that be reason enough for Jesus to rebel against Rome ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
He had no interest in an earthly Empire that controlled the bodies of men but nothing more.
If Jesus who rose from the dead had no interest in an earthly kingdom, does that mean people should follow JESUS EXAMPLE and not be interested in earthly politics ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
I now worship Him and live my life in service to Him.
If you live your life in His service and He never got involved in politics or the institutions of politics, do you think you should follow your Master and not be involved in the military or politics ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
He lived millenia ago, and although my eyes have never seen Him, nevertheless I bow before Him and give absolute loyalty to Him.
Same thing, if your Master was not interested in politics and even helped the Roman centurion ( who was the enemy ) does that mean you should follow Jesus and help your enemy etc and not be involved in the institutions of politics like the army etc ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
I serve in the armed forces of the United States of America, but my first loyalty is to Christ.
If your saying your Master is Jesus and Jesus said, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you and Jesus helped the Roman centurion who belonged to an occupying power that tortured and killed dissident Jews and Jesus said to pay taxes to a foreign occupying power, why are you serving a second master, the US military, whom you admit will not be here forever but rather the more important Kingdom is the Kingdom of God which is everlasting ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
God is supreme over country, and the spiritual kingdom commands complete obedience whereas the earthly kingdom can only expect conditional obedience.
Why be involved in an earthly kingdom ? if you are saying that the spiritual kingdom is more important ? CAN YOU REALLY HAVE TWO MASTERS ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
It is possible that my commanding officer may give me an order that I will refuse to follow.
If the commanding officer tells you to kill your enemies whereas your Lord Jesus tells you the love them, what will you do ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
There are such things as unlawful orders which it is wrong to obey in the military.
Any order which involves killing of the enemy would be contrary to the two laws Jesus gave you, one of which is love your enemy
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Originally posted by Penn:
That is not the case with obedience to God. That is absolute. Why would Jesus prefer the lesser devotion and obedience to the deeper and truer loyalty?
So your saying an earthly kingdom and its institutions are not as valuable as a spiritual kingdom , so by that logic, you will have to choose Jesus and not be involved in any earthly political institution like the army
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Originally posted by Penn:
Why would he prefer a temporary kingdom of political power to an eternal kingdom so great that all of human history can properly be understood as its history?
So the same logic, why would you prefer a temporary kingdom with its political institutions like the army to the eternal kingdom of God ? Can you really serve two masters ? one master says to kill and the other Master, Jesus says to love
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Originally posted by Penn:
You ask about freedom and wonder if Jesus was not free because he was subject to the power of Rome.
Could Jesus be free under an occupying power that taxed the Jews unfairly
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Originally posted by Penn:
Jesus was free.
So your saying spiritual freedom is more important than political freedom ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
There was no limitation on his power that prevented him from killing Romans.
So Jesus did not kill the Romans even though the Romans were torturing and crucifying political Jews ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
But He did not desire to kill Romans.
Is it because Jesus was more concerned about loving the enemy even though the enemy was torturing and killing off the dissident Jews ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
He converted them and in time the Roman Empire made Christianity the law of the Empire.
So are you saying spiritual force is more powerful than political force ? and if so , why does the US use brute force instead of spiritual force ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Look up Constantine. (Now I am not saying that Constantine was acting correctly in doing that, but that is a different matter.)
Constantine killed his enemies, was he really following Jesus ?
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Originally posted by Penn:
Political freedom is not the most important type of freedom.
If political freedom is not as important as spiritual freedom, does that mean we should not try to eject a foreign occupying power like the British that imposed taxes on us ?
